Highest ever number of Welsh people wanting Independence

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A genuine question to the Nats, other than ad hominem attacks, which each and every one of you have engaged it at some point in this thread, what arguments, if any, are there for economic independence.
 

kiffa

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A genuine question to the Nats, other than ad hominem attacks, which each and every one of you have engaged it at some point in this thread, what arguments, if any, are there for economic independence.
Well we wouldn't have to have our taxes being spunked on handouts to Boris and Doms pals for a start
 

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Well we wouldn't have to have our taxes being spunked on handouts to Boris and Doms pals for a start
Our taxes? You may not be aware of the £15bn per annum fiscal deficit.
 

kiffa

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Our taxes? You may not be aware of the £15bn per annum fiscal deficit.
Almost entirely wiped out by the 12bn shit show Serco contract alone

HS2

Nuclear defence spending

Etc

Etc
 

TH63

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A genuine question to the Nats, other than ad hominem attacks, which each and every one of you have engaged it at some point in this thread, what arguments, if any, are there for economic independence.
No we haven't.

There weren't any economic arguments for Brexit, just some vague promises of sovereignty, taking back control and keeping the money we sent to the EU.

I don't see why those same arguments can't apply to Wales.

We take control of our own laws, we would be a sovereign nation, and Welsh taxes would stay in Wales.

That doesn't mean we can't agree a trade agreement with the other home nations as well as our friends on the other side of the newly named Gareth Bale Bridge
 

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Almost entirely wiped out by the 12bn shit show Serco contract alone

HS2

Nuclear defence spending

Etc

Etc
Did Wales pick up the entire bill for all of that, or perhaps only 5%?
 

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No we haven't.

There weren't any economic arguments for Brexit, just some vague promises of sovereignty, taking back control and keeping the money we sent to the EU.

I don't see why those same arguments can't apply to Wales.

We take control of our own laws, we would be a sovereign nation, and Welsh taxes would stay in Wales.

That doesn't mean we can't agree a trade agreement with the other home nations as well as our friends on the other side of the newly named Gareth Bale Bridge
What about London taxes used to subsidise Wales? How would that gap be filled?

Do you really think we'd have aFTA with England? If so, we'd be subject to the BoE rules on borrowing, so no independence.
 

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What about London taxes used to subsidise Wales? How would that gap be filled?

Do you really think we'd have aFTA with England? If so, we'd be subject to the BoE rules on borrowing, so no independence.
Project fear :wave:
 

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As for ad hominem

Arthur says those not favouring independence are brainwashed

Mushy peas suggests that those favouring the Union are old voters

You suggested that any non independence supporting post is disparaging.
 

kiffa

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Did Wales pick up the entire bill for all of that, or perhaps only 5%?
Well obviously not, but the point being, for all the nonsense that the UK government spaff money on, often corruptly, we ARE picking up some of the bill

Now this may not cover the entire fiscal deficit but it's a good place to start to bridge the gap. If 5% is the figure you give, then how much do we need to say is spent on our behalf when it needn't be by the UK government? 300bn right? Now i would argue that it is not at all inconceivable that the government spends that much on shit we don't need.

For all the rhetoric you put across on 'ad hominem' attacks, you yourself seem to refuse to take any positive of independence presented to you on board, and it's therefore pointless arguing with you on this subject itself.
 

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I dont disagree that the UK government wastes money. But let's put some perspective on this.

The SSC benefitted Wales entirely yet was funded from central government. Extrapolated per capita and adjusted for inflation, the costs were similar to HS2.

I dont recall anyone in England arguing against the building of a new bridge a few miles west of the existing one.

The point being is that there will always being union level spend that benefits some areas more than others.

Apropos of the perceived positives of independence, ive asked repeatedly for them to be set out but very little substance is put forward other than quixotic windmill chasing
 

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I asked earlier about the competence of the Welsh government and this was ignored by the pro independence cohort. Specifically my question concerned the m4 relief road decision.

Given almost everyone with a pulse recognises the need for a solution to the M4 brynglas tunnel problem, why should we put faith in an institution that has dithered for 20 years? The power has been there, but our politicians lack the conviction to make the tough decisions.
 

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Great responses @kiffa, clearly touched a nerve.

If you're not comfortable debating the tough questions, then it kind of proves point why we don't have the political maturity for independence
 

kiffa

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I've taken on board some favour independence, but its not clear what the economic picture would be afterwards and not one person can put forward a cogent economic argument.

Forgive me for taking an interest in our economy, how public services would be paid for, how we would close the fiscal gap, how our standard of living would be altered.
 

kiffa

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Great responses @kiffa, clearly touched a nerve.

If you're not comfortable debating the tough questions, then it kind of proves point why we don't have the political maturity for independence
Debates are a two way process unfortunately
 

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As for ad hominem

You suggested that any non independence supporting post is disparaging.
You’re intelligent enough to not to have to resort to making shit up.

1. Suggesting that a post is disparaging is NOT ad hominem

2. I did NOT suggest that any non independence post is disparaging, I said this one was “So 0.3% of the population are members. Only another 48.1% to go.”
 

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You’re intelligent enough to not to have to resort to making shit up.
Arthur doesn't think so, according to he I'm brainwashed. it would therefore appear the independence camp is already fractured in thought, given you believe I am not.

1. Suggesting that a post is disparaging is NOT ad hominem

2. I did NOT suggest that any non independence post is disparaging, I said this one was “So 0.3% of the population are members. Only another 48.1% to go.”
why is the latter disparaging? its making a statement of fact.
 

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