Highest ever number of Welsh people wanting Independence

Arfur Ap Llewellyn Europe

Indy Wales
💎 DIAMOND VIP 💎
👥 GTAM WINNER 👥
❸ 3 YEARS ❸
🗐🗐 20 PAGER 🗐🗐
Thread starter
Joined
20 Aug 2017
Messages
10,153
Reaction score
15,432
Reactions
15,566 524 144
Credits
2,149
An apology to @Feedback and anyone else who felt my use of the term brainwashed was conceited and arrogant.

That's the last thing on my mind, so I take that phrase back. It's not helpful to the debate nor my cause.

Not sure how else to describe how I felt though. That sinking feeling when realised I had the wool pulled over my eyes during my academic years when the English monarchy was forced onto us.

When I actually needed to be learning about our very own Welsh history and culture. Of which there is thousands of years as opposed to anything since the French conquest of 1066.
 

TH63

_______
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
⚽ MODERATOR ⚽
❸ 3 YEARS ❸
☘☘ 100 PAGER ☘☘
PICKEM 18/19 - 1st Place
PICKEM World Cup 2nd
Joined
5 Sep 2017
Messages
16,828
Reaction score
34,703
Reactions
34,747 1,048 108
Credits
2,954
why is the latter disparaging? its making a statement of fact.
adjective
adjective: disparaging
  1. expressing the opinion that something is of little worth; derogatory.
 

Feedback

Ballon d'Or Winner
💰 FORUM SPONSOR 💰
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
❷ 2 YEARS ❷
☘☘ 100 PAGER ☘☘
Joined
25 Oct 2017
Messages
5,814
Reaction score
8,745
Reactions
8,821 444 76
Credits
1,326
An apology to @Feedback and anyone else who felt my use of the term brainwashed was conceited and arrogant.

That's the last thing on my mind, so I take that phrase back. It's not helpful to the debate nor my cause.

Not sure how else to describe how I felt though. That sinking feeling when realised I had the wool pulled over my eyes during my academic years when the English monarchy was forced onto us.

When I actually needed to be learning about our very own Welsh history and culture. Of which there is thousands of years as opposed to anything since the French conquest of 1066.
The Normans didn't conquer Wales until Edward Longshanks in the 1280s

We haven't had an English monarch since Harold. Since then we've had Norman, Angevin, Welsh, Scottish, Hanoverian, Saxe-Coburg Gotha, but no English.

You hadnt heard of Gruffud ap Llewellyn until a few days ago.

Welsh history is so intertwined with the Anglo-saxons, it goes way further back than the Acts of Union, Edward longshanks, the Normans and even Aethelstan.

You literally have no idea how many times the Welsh have fought each other and used the English kings to further their own ambition. If you want to understand Welsh history, then start with The Lord Rhys and read from there.
 

Feedback

Ballon d'Or Winner
💰 FORUM SPONSOR 💰
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
❷ 2 YEARS ❷
☘☘ 100 PAGER ☘☘
Joined
25 Oct 2017
Messages
5,814
Reaction score
8,745
Reactions
8,821 444 76
Credits
1,326
adjective
adjective: disparaging
  1. expressing the opinion that something is of little worth; derogatory.
I made no such statement. My comment was countering the claim made that independence won't be long coming.
 

Arfur Ap Llewellyn Europe

Indy Wales
💎 DIAMOND VIP 💎
👥 GTAM WINNER 👥
❸ 3 YEARS ❸
🗐🗐 20 PAGER 🗐🗐
Thread starter
Joined
20 Aug 2017
Messages
10,153
Reaction score
15,432
Reactions
15,566 524 144
Credits
2,149
The Normans didn't conquer Wales until Edward Longshanks in the 1280s

We haven't had an English monarch since Harold. Since then we've had Norman, Angevin, Welsh, Scottish, Hanoverian, Saxe-Coburg Gotha, but no English.

You hadnt heard of Gruffud ap Llewellyn until a few days ago.

Welsh history is so intertwined with the Anglo-saxons, it goes way further back than the Acts of Union, Edward longshanks, the Normans and even Aethelstan.

You literally have no idea how many times the Welsh have fought each other and used the English kings to further their own ambition. If you want to understand Welsh history, then start with The Lord Rhys and read from there.
I'm not sure where the assertion about my knowledge of the last Welsh King of Wales came from, as I hadn't seen that question until a quick trawl through this thread.

As you're clearly a man of concise fact however, might I be so bold as to correct you in that the answer is actually Gruffydd ap Llywelyn.

Nevertheless, this is an interesting read for anyone interested in their Welsh history, which also mentions a link to Cymric - Anglo relations:


Owain Glyndwr was the last native Welsh person to hold the title Prince of Wales.

He was born in 1359 into a powerful family of the Anglo-Welsh nobility, during a time of relative peace between the tribes of Wales and the English aristocracy.

His father, Gruffydd Fychan II, was a hereditary prince of Powys Fadog and Lord of Glyndyfrdwy, one of the lines of Welsh lords and princes who traced their royal lineage back to before the Norman conquest. His mother, Elen Ferch Tomas Ap Llywelyn of Deheubarth, was also of noble blood.

It is thought that his father died sometime before Owain was 11 years old, and the young prince was fostered to the household of Sir David Hanmer, an Anglo-Welsh judge. Owain followed Hanmer's profession, by going to study Law at the Inns Of Court, but didn't become a 'man of law'.

He married Hanmer's daughter, Margaret, in 1383 adding the titles of Squire of Sycharth and Glyndyfrdwy to his portfolio. In 1384, military service called Owain, and he enlisted under Sir Gregory Sais in the Marches area, the border country of England and Wales. In 1385 he enlisted under the Earl Of Arundel, fighting for King Richard II.

Until the last decade of the 14th century, Owain Glyndwr was a man of the March, having married into a leading Marcher family and become the epitome of an assimilated Welshman.

The year 1399 saw the dethronement of Richard II and the seizure of the throne by Henry IV - the lord of Brecon, Monmouth, Cydweli and Ogwr - although Edmund Mortimer, the leading lord of the March, had a better claim to be the heir of Richard II.

The immediate spark for Owain's revolt seems to have been the King's unwillingness to mediate fairly in a dispute between Owain and his neighbour, Reginald Grey of the Rhuthun marcher lordship.

On September 16, 1400, Glyndŵr instigated the Welsh Revolt against the rule of Henry IV of England. A group of Owain's supporters proclaimed him Prince of Wales at Glyndyfrdwy. Although initially successful, the uprising was eventually put down.

After the final battles of the revolt in 1412, little is known of Owain Glyndwr. Flashes of sporadic violence against the English continued, but by bandits and outlets rather than any semblance of an organised military force.

Henry IV died in 1413, and was succeeded by the less Plantagenet, more astute Henry of Monmouth, Henry V. He began to offer the Welsh rebels pardons. Owain's son Marededd refused a pardon until 1421, leading some historians to suspect that this was the year in which he died.

One theory is that he ended his life as a the family chaplain on his daughter Alys' estate she shared with her husband, Sir Henry Scudamore, the sheriff of Herefordshire.

The rebellion had to a large extent ruined the fragile but comfortable coexistence the English and Welsh had arrived at. Chroniclers at the time reported that, Glyndwr had "brought all things to waste" and the English king "proclaimed havoc in Wales".

There was extensive destruction of towns and villages, and agricultural land went to waste. It was at least a generation before most of the areas caught up in the revolt got back to working life.

There had been great loss of life, an economic blockade and a weakening of commerce. Politically, too, the Welsh were knocked back where they had been making progress. It would be 150 years until the Welsh were allowed to become more prominent in society.

But Glyndwr was not being forgotten in the misery. In his play, Henry IV, Shakespeare portrays Owain Glyndwr as a wild, exotic, magical and spiritual man, playing up the romantic 'Celtic' traits.

In the 19th century his life and legacy was beginning to be re-evaluated as the Welsh 'nation' began to find its voice once more. The discovery of his seal and letters were proof that he was a national leader of some importance - a learned head of a country with diplomatic ties as any other head of state might.

The nationalist movement has always held Owain Glyndwr in high regard, but he is now a figure of mass culture in Wales, with statues and monuments alongside pub and street names commemorating him.
 

Feedback

Ballon d'Or Winner
💰 FORUM SPONSOR 💰
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
❷ 2 YEARS ❷
☘☘ 100 PAGER ☘☘
Joined
25 Oct 2017
Messages
5,814
Reaction score
8,745
Reactions
8,821 444 76
Credits
1,326
Are you aware that Glyndwrs rebellion was not about independence but because he didn't receive an appropriate distribution of the sports of battle. Glyndwr was a fervent supporter of the English Crown until the crown shafted him.

A better example of a welshmen fighting the English for the love of his country would be Owain Gwynedd 300 years before Glyndwr.
 

TH63

_______
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
⚽ MODERATOR ⚽
❸ 3 YEARS ❸
☘☘ 100 PAGER ☘☘
PICKEM 18/19 - 1st Place
PICKEM World Cup 2nd
Joined
5 Sep 2017
Messages
16,828
Reaction score
34,703
Reactions
34,747 1,048 108
Credits
2,954
Are you aware that Glyndwrs rebellion was not about independence but because he didn't receive an appropriate distribution of the sports of battle. Glyndwr was a fervent supporter of the English Crown until the crown shafted him.

A better example of a welshmen fighting the English for the love of his country would be Owain Gwynedd 300 years before Glyndwr.
So what you’re saying is that the english have been shafting us for 1,000 years and it’s about time we told them to do one and claimed our independenc.
 

Feedback

Ballon d'Or Winner
💰 FORUM SPONSOR 💰
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
❷ 2 YEARS ❷
☘☘ 100 PAGER ☘☘
Joined
25 Oct 2017
Messages
5,814
Reaction score
8,745
Reactions
8,821 444 76
Credits
1,326
So what you’re saying is that the english have been shafting us for 1,000 years and it’s about time we told them to do one and claimed our independenc.
English?

You mean Normans, Angevins etc etc. We've not had an English monarch attack Wales since the 9th century
 

stantys tattoos

never sober
💎 DIAMOND VIP 💎
❶ 1 YEAR ❶
PICKEM 19/20 WINNER
☘☘ 100 PAGER ☘☘
~LMS Belarus~
😈 Prince of Darkness 😈
🍺 BEER CLUB 🍺
Joined
20 Feb 2019
Messages
31,908
Reaction score
43,031
Reactions
43,055 1,315 72
Credits
1,815
why do i read these threads

tenor (32).gif
 

TH63

_______
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
⚽ MODERATOR ⚽
❸ 3 YEARS ❸
☘☘ 100 PAGER ☘☘
PICKEM 18/19 - 1st Place
PICKEM World Cup 2nd
Joined
5 Sep 2017
Messages
16,828
Reaction score
34,703
Reactions
34,747 1,048 108
Credits
2,954
I am NOT apoplectic ok??!!!!!

:hehe:
 

Feedback

Ballon d'Or Winner
💰 FORUM SPONSOR 💰
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
❷ 2 YEARS ❷
☘☘ 100 PAGER ☘☘
Joined
25 Oct 2017
Messages
5,814
Reaction score
8,745
Reactions
8,821 444 76
Credits
1,326
Albert Einstein was born in 1879, and by the age of 36 he had drafted the three cornerstones on modern physics. The man is widely regarded as the most intelligent person, the most critical thinker, to have ever lived. Albert Einstein visited the USA in 1933 and never returned to Germany. Einstein's view on nationalism was that it was "the 19th century infantile disease of the mind".

Who knew that Einstein was one of the uneducated brainwashed, and unlike Arthur, Einstein wasn't capable of independent freedom of thought.

Do we really appreciate we have such gifted individuals here in Wales, individuals who have such clarity of ideas. With such clarity the following questions should pose no difficulty:

1. given Wales has 1 in 5 working in the public sector compared to the UK average of 1 in 4, how does Arthur propose we increase our tax take (immediately after independence) - lets say we need an extra 250,000 private sector jobs to meet the gap?

2. given wales has a GVA of approximately 75% of the rest of the UK, how does Arthur propose we bridge that gap to bring our standard of living back to what it is today?

3. given the fiscal gap in Wales is currently £15bn, how does Arthur propose we close that gap? Whilst @kiffa has attempted to answer, using once in a lifetime infrastructure spend such as HS2 isn't the answer, given we also benefit from once in a lifetime spend on projects such as the Second Severn Crossing, with both projects costing per capita similar amounts.

4. Does independence truly mean independence i.e. from Brussels, or is just independence from Westminster?

5. assuming The UK/England is outside of the EU, and it is unlikely any deal with the EU can be reached, and assuming independence truly means independence from Brussels as well as Westminster, what kind of trade deal will we have with the English, given 90% of our exports are made to England yet English imports from Wales are less than 10% of their total.
 

kiffa

(kippa)
💎 DIAMOND VIP 💎
🏆 GOLD VIP 🏆
❷ 2 YEARS ❷
₡ BOOKIE ₡
🏁🏁🏁 50 PAGER 🏁🏁🏁
Joined
29 Oct 2017
Messages
9,490
Reaction score
15,489
Reactions
15,616 467 135
Credits
5,879
Wasn’t the second Severn crossing paid for by tolls? Therefore only by those benefitting directly from using it?

Besides which, my point was not regarding infrastructure spending it was regarding spending and mis-appropriation of public money on all manner of things, and people.
 
Last edited:

Feedback

Ballon d'Or Winner
💰 FORUM SPONSOR 💰
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
❷ 2 YEARS ❷
☘☘ 100 PAGER ☘☘
Joined
25 Oct 2017
Messages
5,814
Reaction score
8,745
Reactions
8,821 444 76
Credits
1,326
Wasn’t the second Severn crossing paid for by tolls? Therefore only by those benefitting directly from using it?
Not the build cost, that was borrowed upfront. The tolls were used to repay that borrowing but not the interest.

This was one of the first large scale public/private partnerships.

HS2 will be financed in a broadly similar way.
 

kiffa

(kippa)
💎 DIAMOND VIP 💎
🏆 GOLD VIP 🏆
❷ 2 YEARS ❷
₡ BOOKIE ₡
🏁🏁🏁 50 PAGER 🏁🏁🏁
Joined
29 Oct 2017
Messages
9,490
Reaction score
15,489
Reactions
15,616 467 135
Credits
5,879
Not the build cost, that was borrowed upfront. The tolls were used to repay that borrowing but not the interest.

This was one of the first large scale public/private partnerships.

HS2 will be financed in a broadly similar way.
Taken from wiki

The cost of constructing the new crossing was to be paid for by tolls collected from motorists using the two crossings. Work on the new crossing began in 1992. Completion was in 1996.
 

Feedback

Ballon d'Or Winner
💰 FORUM SPONSOR 💰
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
❷ 2 YEARS ❷
☘☘ 100 PAGER ☘☘
Joined
25 Oct 2017
Messages
5,814
Reaction score
8,745
Reactions
8,821 444 76
Credits
1,326
Taken from wiki

The cost of constructing the new crossing was to be paid for by tolls collected from motorists using the two crossings. Work on the new crossing began in 1992. Completion was in 1996.
yes, i don't disagree
 
Top