Highest ever number of Welsh people wanting Independence

Feedback

Ballon d'Or Winner
💰 FORUM SPONSOR 💰
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
❸ 3 YEARS ❸
☘☘ 100 PAGER ☘☘
Joined
25 Oct 2017
Messages
5,825
Reaction score
8,749
Reactions
8,825 446 76
Credits
1,341
Arthur earlier mentioned Owain Glyndwr as some sort of poster boy for the Welsh nationalist movement. however, Glyndwr was certainly no Welsh nationalist per se, not in the current sent of the word. Glyndwr's rebellion was no different in nature than Mortimer's or John of Gaunt and was not based on a desire for nationalism but a desire to seek redress from the king for a deal that Glyndwr felt he deserved better. Not all Welshmen followed Glyndwr, and in fact, many Welshmen were with Henry Bollingroke at Agincourt in 1415, a couple of years after Glyndwr's disappearance.

Welsh and English relations go back much further than this. In fact, the Anglo-Saxons were present on these islands prior to the Roman departure in the early 5th century. The Romans initially used the Anglo-Saxons as auxiliaries, and the likes of Vortigern (King of the Britons) invited them to settle in the south in the 5th century. modern thinking is that this was not an invasion, as per the Normans, and the lack of archaeological evidence for battles attests to this theory, but a slow migration to farm the very ample lands that were available. Current thinking is that the Anglo-Saxons become the elite, and therefore their language became the lingua franca much like Latin before it, and similarly how Norman French affected old English to became middle English

From the 5th century onwards petty kingdoms developed all across the islands, creating what was known in England as the heptarchy. Each kingdom would fight amongst themselves, and current DNA analysis indicates that the inhabitants were a mix of Britons and Anglo-Saxons, and not just the latter. The only battle of note between a Brythonic kingdom and an Anglo-Saxon kingdom took place near Chester in or around 615. this split the Brythonic lands in two, cutting off the north from the south. Incidentally, the Brythonic influence in the north is pretty obvious, with Strath(clyde) being cognate with Ystrad, and Cumberland/Cumbria have the same etymology as Cymru. In fact, Cumbric (a variety of Brythonic) was a language spoken in the north until the 13th century.

The general consensus amongst scholars and historians is that the Britons and Anglo-Saxons intermingled and traded with each other quite peacefully, and the only difference between the kingdoms was who the ruling elite were. Quite often Powys and Mercia would join forces and attack Northumberland or Wessex.

The notion that the Anglo-Saxons invaded these islands is false, based on current evidence.

however, 1066 changed everything. The Normans were the invaders, first conquering Saxon England, then Gaelic Ireland, then Scotland and lastly Wales. It was not the Anglo-Saxons that invaded Wales in the same way it was not the Belgians that invaded France or the Danes that invaded Norway in 1940.

One other point, the first invaders of Brythonic lands were the Irish in the 5th century, who invaded the Strathclyde region, setting up the Gaelic kingdom Dal Riata. Ironic that a thousand years later the Scots would go the other way creating the division in Northern Ireland we see today. Despite the Irish being the original aggressors and pretty much wiping out the Welsh of the north, no-one has a bad word to say about them.

The history of Wales and England has always been intertwined, and its only the rise of welsh nationalism in the 20th and 21st century that looks towards revisionism and painting a picture of us Welsh being under the English yoke. This is just not true.
 

Feedback

Ballon d'Or Winner
💰 FORUM SPONSOR 💰
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
❸ 3 YEARS ❸
☘☘ 100 PAGER ☘☘
Joined
25 Oct 2017
Messages
5,825
Reaction score
8,749
Reactions
8,825 446 76
Credits
1,341
So are you saying that the cost of the bridge was met by the users and the interest was met by the government?
as will HS2, I'm not sure of your point.

NB HS2 is paid for by the government then the operators will pay a franchise fee to use it. The franchise fee will cover the government cost, the users will pay the train operator via ticketing.
 

TH63

_______
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
⚽ MODERATOR ⚽
❸ 3 YEARS ❸
🗐🗐🗐🗐 200 PAGER 🗐🗐🗐🗐
PICKEM 18/19 - 1st Place
PICKEM World Cup 2nd
Joined
5 Sep 2017
Messages
16,886
Reaction score
34,804
Reactions
34,848 1,049 108
Credits
3,115
Rattled imho
 

kiffa

(kippa)
💎 DIAMOND VIP 💎
🏆 GOLD VIP 🏆
❷ 2 YEARS ❷
₡ BOOKIE ₡
🏁🏁🏁 50 PAGER 🏁🏁🏁
Joined
29 Oct 2017
Messages
9,584
Reaction score
15,597
Reactions
15,724 472 135
Credits
3,638
as will HS2, I'm not sure of your point.

NB HS2 is paid for by the government then the operators will pay a franchise fee to use it. The franchise fee will cover the government cost, the users will pay the train operator via ticketing.
Did the consortium who built the second seven bridge pay any such franchise fee to the government?

How much does a rail franchise cost these days?

All besides which i notice you haven't addressed my remark of misappropriating my argument to infrastructure alone to suit your argument, a common technique of yours
 
Last edited:

Feedback

Ballon d'Or Winner
💰 FORUM SPONSOR 💰
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
❸ 3 YEARS ❸
☘☘ 100 PAGER ☘☘
Joined
25 Oct 2017
Messages
5,825
Reaction score
8,749
Reactions
8,825 446 76
Credits
1,341
If by rattled you mean I've presented facts without offering comment or opinion then I am rattled. If by rattled you mean waiting for a response to questions asked then I'm rattled. There's a reason why you have not answered the questions asked, because they pose an uncomfortable truth.

Notwithstanding that point, we each have a different definition of rattled. To me rattled is 0.3% of the population being members of Yes Cymru, rattling around like a pea in a whistle, making lots of noise but not achieving anything else.

I will leave you with this, my favourite interview from 2020, it is a metaphor with Trump representing @Arfur Ap Llewellyn Europe , @kiffa , @TH63 and the other intellectuals, with Jonathan Swan representing us brainwashed moderates, looking on at the comments you make in support of your position.
 

Feedback

Ballon d'Or Winner
💰 FORUM SPONSOR 💰
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
❸ 3 YEARS ❸
☘☘ 100 PAGER ☘☘
Joined
25 Oct 2017
Messages
5,825
Reaction score
8,749
Reactions
8,825 446 76
Credits
1,341
Did the consortium who built the second seven bridge pay any such franchise fee to the government?
no, the funding model was different so why would they?
How much does a rail franchise cost these days?
a standard line is several billion, HS2 will be significantly more

All besides which i notice you haven't addressed my remark of misappropriating my argument to infrastructure alone to suit your argument, a common technique of yours
raise the points again, and I will address them in turn.
 

TH63

_______
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
⚽ MODERATOR ⚽
❸ 3 YEARS ❸
🗐🗐🗐🗐 200 PAGER 🗐🗐🗐🗐
PICKEM 18/19 - 1st Place
PICKEM World Cup 2nd
Joined
5 Sep 2017
Messages
16,886
Reaction score
34,804
Reactions
34,848 1,049 108
Credits
3,115
Definitely rattled
 

Feedback

Ballon d'Or Winner
💰 FORUM SPONSOR 💰
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
❸ 3 YEARS ❸
☘☘ 100 PAGER ☘☘
Joined
25 Oct 2017
Messages
5,825
Reaction score
8,749
Reactions
8,825 446 76
Credits
1,341
Dear Intellectuals,

For the want of repeating myself, can you please enlighten us brainwashed regarding how we're going to square the economic circle?
 

TH63

_______
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
⚽ MODERATOR ⚽
❸ 3 YEARS ❸
🗐🗐🗐🗐 200 PAGER 🗐🗐🗐🗐
PICKEM 18/19 - 1st Place
PICKEM World Cup 2nd
Joined
5 Sep 2017
Messages
16,886
Reaction score
34,804
Reactions
34,848 1,049 108
Credits
3,115
Dear Intellectuals,

For the want of repeating myself, can you please enlighten us brainwashed regarding how we're going to square the economic circle?
Well I certainly wouldn't class myself as an intellectual but I'll have a go.

Nobody was bothered about the economic impact when they ticked the "leave" box in 2016.

So I don't know. I'm sure it will be difficult, but Wales voted for Economic suicide before, and I'm equally sure that there are people far cleverer than I am who will sort it all out.

As in 2016, this is about sovereignty and shaking off the yoke of, in this case, Westminster.
 

Eat Y'self Fitter

Kicker Conspiracist
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
🏆 GOLD VIP 🏆
⚽ MODERATOR ⚽
❸ 3 YEARS ❸
☘☘ 100 PAGER ☘☘
PICKEM 17/18 - 1st Place
Joined
12 Sep 2017
Messages
13,191
Reaction score
22,638
Reactions
22,703 774 83
Credits
2,671
As in 2016, this is about sovereignty and shaking off the yoke of, in this case, Westminster.
As in 2016, this is about sovereignty and shaking off the yoke of, in this case, something that IS actually detrimental to our future prosperity.
 

Arfur Ap Llewellyn Europe

Indy Wales
💎 DIAMOND VIP 💎
👥 GTAM WINNER 👥
❸ 3 YEARS ❸
🗐🗐 20 PAGER 🗐🗐
Thread starter
Joined
20 Aug 2017
Messages
10,160
Reaction score
15,432
Reactions
15,568 524 146
Credits
2,158
As in 2016, this is about sovereignty and shaking off the yoke of, in this case, something that IS actually detrimental to our future prosperity.
This is what Feedy fails to understand. Being stuck under the Westminster boot has led us into high levels of poverty as we have regularly been asset stripped.

Yes it would be tough to begin with, but it couldn't be any worse than the financial predicament we have been in for a couple of hundred years.

As for the EU, if Wales could negotiate an EU lite deal, we'd be in an incredible position to trade with England and you'd even have English companies moving here en masse to enjoy the benefits of tariff free trade with the EU.
 

Feedback

Ballon d'Or Winner
💰 FORUM SPONSOR 💰
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
❸ 3 YEARS ❸
☘☘ 100 PAGER ☘☘
Joined
25 Oct 2017
Messages
5,825
Reaction score
8,749
Reactions
8,825 446 76
Credits
1,341
Well I certainly wouldn't class myself as an intellectual but I'll have a go.

Nobody was bothered about the economic impact when they ticked the "leave" box in 2016.

So I don't know. I'm sure it will be difficult, but Wales voted for Economic suicide before, and I'm equally sure that there are people far cleverer than I am who will sort it all out.

As in 2016, this is about sovereignty and shaking off the yoke of, in this case, Westminster.
Whilst I appreciate the time you have taken to respond, you've not answered any of the questions that have been asked. you've simply reverted to type with the usual rhetoric and bluster...but but but the English, but but but Westminster, but but but the yoke, ad nauseum.

A couple of facts for you, and I appreciate you Nats dislike facts and disregard then when they don't suit but here you go....

All of the home nations, Wales is the best represented per capita in Westminster, with 45 MPs. Furthermore, Wales receives the 2nd most after Northern Ireland under Barnett. This is all rather impressive considering the scoundrels from over the dyke wish to trample over us in their union jack painted hob nailed boots.

with respect to your comment about Brexit, its not relevant to this discussion but even if it was my opinion is the same. I voted remain for the same reasons I'd vote for Wales to remain in the UK - it is better to have less borders than more, it is better to let people move freely than to try and control them. However, did Wales really vote for economic suicide in 2016 given that remaining in the UK allows wales to continue to be the recipient of £15bn per annum funding it would not receive from the EU. That is not economic suicide, not really.

however, lets turn to your aspersion that Wales would be better of by shaking off the Westminster yoke. Wales has had devolution for 21 years, and since that time, all areas that have been devolved, Wales has either stagnated or gone backwards. Of course the nats will claim no accountability whatsoever and lay blame at the English somehow rather than accepting our political class is generally bereft of skill and talent.

Health -backwards
Education - backwards
Transport - backwards
Economy - backwards

just recently we had the Welsh government baulk at the M4 relief road decision, a decision which will impact Wales for many many years to come. This is the calibre of politics we can expect with independence. Yet somehow the nats will try and polish this particular political turd and explain that a different decision would have been made if we were free of the English yoke.

its puerile English bashing, nothing more.

 

Feedback

Ballon d'Or Winner
💰 FORUM SPONSOR 💰
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
❸ 3 YEARS ❸
☘☘ 100 PAGER ☘☘
Joined
25 Oct 2017
Messages
5,825
Reaction score
8,749
Reactions
8,825 446 76
Credits
1,341
This is what Feedy fails to understand. Being stuck under the Westminster boot has led us into high levels of poverty as we have regularly been asset stripped.
you can't help being patronising can you? I've explained why Wales isn't under any boot elsewhere, using facts to support my position. You rely on emotion, which is fair enough, but its not solid ground on which to make informed decisions.

Yes it would be tough to begin with, but it couldn't be any worse than the financial predicament we have been in for a couple of hundred years.
what financial predicament? Before the industrial revolution Wales was an agrarian society. Without English capital Scotland faced financial ruin after the Darian scheme, and the same applied to Wales. without English capital and labour, Wales would have remained a rural backwater. We've seen the development of Wales under a Welsh government and its been weak at best.

As for the EU, if Wales could negotiate an EU lite deal, we'd be in an incredible position to trade with England and you'd even have English companies moving here en masse to enjoy the benefits of tariff free trade with the EU.
you've really not thought this through. English business won't be falling over themselves to relocate to Wales just to enjoy free trade with the EU. If Wales joins the EU, then we can expect border controls, customs, duties and tariffs with our largest trading partner.

What I don't understand is the nats wish to be part of the EU subject to laws made by Brussels - surely independence means independence, and not part of some larger union that makes decisions for us? Or have I misunderstood what independence actually means?

My final comment is about the questions I have asked. Is there any chance of the intellectuals answering what has been asked and if so, can it be done without referencing the English.
 

Feedback

Ballon d'Or Winner
💰 FORUM SPONSOR 💰
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
❸ 3 YEARS ❸
☘☘ 100 PAGER ☘☘
Joined
25 Oct 2017
Messages
5,825
Reaction score
8,749
Reactions
8,825 446 76
Credits
1,341
As in 2016, this is about sovereignty and shaking off the yoke of, in this case, something that IS actually detrimental to our future prosperity.
perhaps you can have a go at answering the questions I have asked, since all the other intellectuals are skirting them, and refusing to provide any detail on how we will suddenly be living in this land of mile and honey, where the sun will shine every day and no child will go hungry.
 

TH63

_______
⭐ PLATINUM VIP ⭐
⚽ MODERATOR ⚽
❸ 3 YEARS ❸
🗐🗐🗐🗐 200 PAGER 🗐🗐🗐🗐
PICKEM 18/19 - 1st Place
PICKEM World Cup 2nd
Joined
5 Sep 2017
Messages
16,886
Reaction score
34,804
Reactions
34,848 1,049 108
Credits
3,115
Whilst I appreciate the time you have taken to respond, you've not answered any of the questions that have been asked. you've simply reverted to type with the usual rhetoric and bluster...but but but the English, but but but Westminster, but but but the yoke, ad nauseum.

A couple of facts for you, and I appreciate you Nats dislike facts and disregard then when they don't suit but here you go....

All of the home nations, Wales is the best represented per capita in Westminster, with 45 MPs. Furthermore, Wales receives the 2nd most after Northern Ireland under Barnett. This is all rather impressive considering the scoundrels from over the dyke wish to trample over us in their union jack painted hob nailed boots.

with respect to your comment about Brexit, its not relevant to this discussion but even if it was my opinion is the same. I voted remain for the same reasons I'd vote for Wales to remain in the UK - it is better to have less borders than more, it is better to let people move freely than to try and control them. However, did Wales really vote for economic suicide in 2016 given that remaining in the UK allows wales to continue to be the recipient of £15bn per annum funding it would not receive from the EU. That is not economic suicide, not really.

however, lets turn to your aspersion that Wales would be better of by shaking off the Westminster yoke. Wales has had devolution for 21 years, and since that time, all areas that have been devolved, Wales has either stagnated or gone backwards. Of course the nats will claim no accountability whatsoever and lay blame at the English somehow rather than accepting our political class is generally bereft of skill and talent.

Health -backwards
Education - backwards
Transport - backwards
Economy - backwards

just recently we had the Welsh government baulk at the M4 relief road decision, a decision which will impact Wales for many many years to come. This is the calibre of politics we can expect with independence. Yet somehow the nats will try and polish this particular political turd and explain that a different decision would have been made if we were free of the English yoke.

its puerile English bashing, nothing more.

My answer is that I don’t know what the economic impacts would be, or how we would overcome them.

It’s not English bashing, if anyone’s being bashed it’s Westminster and the Tories.
 
Top